February 21, 2002 (Thursday)
Swami came to Ganesh portico around 4.00 pm.
Swami: (To a student) What happened to your hand ?
Student: Swami, sprain.
Swami: (To another student) Who spoke today?
Student: Swami, Sri Vijay Kelkar (Executive Director for India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Bhutan at the International Monetary Fund, U.S.A.).
Swami: What did he speak about ?
Student: Globalisation, Swami.
Swami: Will you put in practice whatever he said?
Prof. A. K. : Some people will practice.
Swami: There must be some limit to anything. If you cross them, you will face difficulties and losses. The natural resources are limited. You should not exploit them as you wish. You should maintain proper balance.
Prof. A. K. : How is it possible?
Swami: You should keep your desires under control. They should be minimal. Nowadays, on one hand they keep on digging the ground (for mineral wealth) and on the other the hand, they keep building skyscrapers. Then where is the balance? Due to this calamities occur. If you use any thing beyond limit, it leads to danger. So, you should have ‘Ceiling on Desires’. I don’t have any type of desires and I am always happy. I don’t cause harm to any one.
Prof. A. K.: Swami, sometimes desires turn into necessity.
Swami: What?
Prof. A. K. : Swami, in the past, phones and fans were a luxury. But now they have become a necessity.
Swami: Considering them to be a necessity is your big mistake. We should not go beyond our needs. If you think that it is not needed, then it is not a necessity. Desires should not become necessity.
Prof. A. K.: What is the difference between desire and necessity?
Swami: Desire is not necessity. Hunger is not desire. You should eat for living.
But the rice can be bought either for Rupees two, four or six. The food may be different, but hunger is the same. One should eat to the level it is necessary.
Prof. A. K.: Swami, this is at individual level, but what about at the society level?
Swami: This applies to everyone, either in the village, state or country.
Everyone should have control.
Prof. A. K.: Avasaram, Aasha and Korika (Necessity, wants and desire).
Swami: Desire comes because of Asha (wants). Sometimes Asha is also necessity, but not always.
Prof. A. K.: Swami, if we have desire, it leads to improvement in the standard of living?
Swami: It does not improve, instead it leads to danger. (After pausing for a minute.) What else is the matter?
Prof. A. K.: When American President George Bush went to China and Japan for talks on globalisation, people raised anti-globalisation slogans.
Swami: Advanced countries have exploited everything and become rich. For India, removal of hunger is very important. Advanced countries go beyond control in exploiting Nature. Acquiring wealth is important for them. In Andhra Pradesh, they are providing more funds to Information Technology and developing it. They don’t know what to put where and where to invest. Science and technology is not useful for the villagers. If you do any work, it should give joy to everyone. That which falls from the hills dries up, but a good thought in you will be permanent. People borrow money for various things. The way of thinking of the world is different now.
Prof. A.K.: Swami, this world is full of desires.
Swami: Our institutions should not have this type of desires.
Prof. A. K.: Swami, what is Aadhunikam (modern)?
Swami: Aadhunikam means cutting down our likings. Aadhunikam does not mean building up of desires. People live happily if they do not have desires. People should not increase their desires as they wish. In ancient days, people were content with what they had. Nowadays desires are very strong. In My opinion, civilisation means reducing desires. Desires should be in limit, one should be content with whatever one has.
Teacher: Yes, Swami, or else future generations will suffer.
Swami: Nothing will remain for their younger generations. So, nothing should be used in excess. One should have ceiling on desires.
Prof. A. K.: This is for individual level Swami, what about at society’s level?
Swami: Society must always be kept at a balanced state. All living beings must be treated equally. One should not feel bad that someone has a mansion. Rather, he should feel happy that he has at least a hut and be content because there are so many not having even that.
Prof. A.K.: With competition and development, society can achieve anything.
Swami: For us, achieving is not important, protecting is important. We should protect our strengths and resources. Then everything will come to you automatically.
Teacher: Swami, civilisation is only responsible for the New York incidents?
Swami: Present civilisation leads to many problems. Not only there, in times to come, many more will occur.
Prof. A.K.: Swami, still that event is not forgotten.
Swami: It cannot be forgotten. Not only there, wherever such things take place, it cannot be forgotten. Many more events which cannot be forgotten will occur in the future.
Prof. A.K.: The solution for all this is mental transformation.
Swami: What does transformation mean?
Prof. A. K.: Swami, change.
Swami: Change is human nature. One should cultivate good feelings, and reduce desires, which are man’s fantasies. In natural state, there are no desires and no bad thoughts. I have been very happy and comfortable for the last 76 years. Even a common man should be like Me. What else?
Prof. A. K.: Swami, in Brahmo Samaj, the social customs are different. There also desires are less.
Swami: Whoever has more desires is poor, while whosoever has fewer desires is rich. What do you mean by poor and rich? The more the desires, the poorer he is, and the lesser the desires one has, the richer he is.
Prof. A. K. : In spirituality, if one desires for God, is it not a desire?
Swami: It is also a desire; everyone should think that he is one with God. If he considers that God is different from him, it is not spirituality. What is spirituality?
Prof. A. K.: Feeling that God dwells everywhere in this world.
Swami: Laukikam (Worldliness) is also spiritual. Real spirituality means shedding of one’s animal qualities and transforming one’s humanity to Divinity. Go up and up. Don’t go down. For one’s selfish needs man should not descend from top to down. One should kill one’s animal qualities, cultivate good qualities and should transform to Divinity. To aspire for Divinity is not a desire, it is natural.
Swami: To crave for what you don’t have is desire. If noble thoughts are born, it leads to a noble world. No calamities will be there.
Prof. A. K.: Everyday we pray “Loka Samastha…”; is that also not a desire?
Swami: No, not a desire. Whatever is good for you, you want that for all. Whatever satisfies you, all should get that. Whatever pains you, you pray that it should not pain others. You pray that all should be happy. This is natural.
Prof. A. K.: Swami, I did M.Sc. but all cannot become M.Sc. holders.
Swami: That is for the world, I don’t need that. At Atmic level such rights (Arhatulu) and roles (Paathralu) don’t exist. In Atmic stage, mind, position, goal, wealth (Mati, Sthiti, Gati, Sampatti) are important. For example, a Dhobi (washerman) takes clothes from different people in the morning and returns them all by evening to the right person. Who is intelligent?
Prof. A. K.: All know that a washerman is better than an educated person.
Swami: His position of intellect gives him direction which leads to happiness, which is his wealth.
Prof. A. K. : Does not wealth (Sampatti) mean property?
Swami: Property is not your true wealth; your good qualities are your true wealth. That which is unseen, feeds you. That is Brahma. That which is seen, deludes you. That is Bhrama. Brahma is unseen, Bhrama is seen.
Prof. A. K.: What is the point of intersection between Bhrama and Brahma?
Swami: Brahma has everything. Remembering this principle we should carry out our duty. (Here Swami narrated a small story.) Once there was a mother-in-law and a daughter-in-law. One day the daughter-in-law’s brother came to see her and asked about her to the mother-in-law. The mother-in-law replied that the daughter-in-law was a thief. She drinks the milk while boiling, eats curd while curdling, and eats butter while making buttermilk. Then the brother asked his sister, “Why do you commit so many mistakes? If you drink just milk that is enough as milk has everything.”
(Swami narrated the above incident to highlight the point that if God (milk) is there in our hands, then the whole world (curd, butter, etc.) will automatically be in our hands.)
Prof. A. K. : Swami, is this due to Kaala Paristhiti (time)?
Swami: No, this is due to lack of your Buddhi (intellect). I have told all this so many times, but you keep forgetting. What I tell today, you forget by tomorrow. For this even Buddha went searching for many people, reading many texts, but not being satisfied, he went and sat under a tree and meditated. He shed away desire, anger, greed and attachment and attained Brahma Jnanam (knowledge of the Self). One should have good vision, hear good things and speak good things. Then, in the end, one will get Nirvana (liberation). One should not take in all that is in the exterior world. Only the good things should be observed, that is the role of the Buddhi.
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